The Trouble with Tables

Grok Headline matches for The Trouble with Tables

Querying SQL Server 2000 system tables
directly. Part 1: master..sysaltfiles
and master..sysconfigures system tables

Querying SQL Server 2000 system tables
directly. Part 1: master..sysaltfiles
and master..sysconfigures system tables 07/20/2004 05:58 PM

Looking for trouble: Using trouble
tickets as development feedback

Looking for trouble: Using trouble
tickets as development feedback 07/14/2002 11:29 PM
CNET Jul 14 2002 10:13PM ET

Tables without tables

Tables without tables 03/13/2003 10:22 AM
For my other weblog, I can afford to experiment, layout-wise. A large portion of the readers are already using CSS-capable...

Tables vs CSS

Tables vs CSS 10/30/2003 10:27 PM
vendor that sells product to help you maintain shitty markup claims that shitty markup is better .. Tables versus Full CSS Integration .. Web-based Humor at It's Finest .. Redesigning a web site .. DeCloak .. rant

decloak.com/Products/Dreamweaver/NestedTemplates/TablesOrLayers .aspx
track this site | 6 links

Why CSS is for tables too

Why CSS is for tables too 08/02/2004 11:43 AM
CNET Aug 2 2004 3:02PM GMT

Class-Tables-0.28

Class-Tables-0.28 07/15/2004 11:39 PM

Gasp! Tables!

Gasp! Tables! 05/13/2004 05:06 PM

Andy Budd, a name some of you will recognize as a proponent of CSS-based design, has decided to take a long, hard objective look at the arguments made in favor of CSS.

I'm sure we've all found ourselves writing fairly complicated CSS to do something that would be trivial using tables. Take form styling for example. It's possible to lay out even very tricky forms using tables in just a few minutes. You can achieve similar results by floating elements with CSS, but it's a lot more involved

The rest of Andy's points are lucid, level-headed, and enforce something that you may or may not personally believe: CSS-based design under all circumstances, while a goal to strive for, is hard. Using a table for layout may at times be the best way to get the job done.

For example, it's (relatively) easy to keep a CSS-based design functioning on a simple 10 page, custom-designed site; you're designing for rigid and known conditions. There's almost never a need to fall back to tables under those circumstances.

But it's a whole new level to keep a large 500 page CMS-driven site functioning, which could potentially see large images dropped in the content area (thus breaking your floats), or multiple hands involved in creating markup (including those that are markup-illiterate), or any number of other conditions beyond your direct control. More and more of us are learning this from direct experience, myself included. Just because you know how to code without a table in sight doesn't mean the rest of the stakeholders in your project will.

None of this is permission to go wild. One simple table stripped of presentational markup should almost always suffice in these circumstances. And please, leave the multiple nested tables in 1999.

But claiming structural tables are wrong under any and all circumstances is too much of an ideal at this moment in time. The practical reality of today's web is that learning curves and browser support can sometimes raise the bar too high for full-out CSS design in certain scenarios. A designer using proper discretion who pays special attention to accessibility, essentially a designer who is educated and capable of using tables well, may consider the layout table a still-valuable tool.

Reactions will be mixed. Vive la difference!

Turning the tables on e-

Turning the tables on e- 06/18/2004 01:11 PM
Techzonez Jun 18 2004 5:26PM GMT

Does your website still use Tables?

Does your website still use Tables? 08/09/2004 08:30 PM

I will be the first to admit I have several websites with Tables and need to get them converted to CSS. I encourage you to take the time and read the linked article to better understand why you are throwing money away every day by not cleaning up your website and converting from plain jane HTML to CSS. [StopDesign< /a>]

Tables? Oh, the horror!

Tables? Oh, the horror! 05/16/2004 04:30 PM

Apparently there remains some confusion after my Thursday-afternoon rumination on the poten tial use of tables, as opposed to pure CSS-based layouts. I'm going to share some of my experience to help clear this up.

more...

CSS vs. Tables - an objective look

CSS vs. Tables - an objective look 05/13/2004 02:00 PM

Andy Budd offers an objective look at table based vs. CSS based design, arguing that using tables for layout sometimes makes more sense than relying on CSS. He also states that the "CSS only" approach of some standards enthusiasts may alienate those not so well-versed in CSS.

Although some of the purists in my customer base may be shocked to hear this, I'm inclined to agree with Andy. IMO, you should use whichever technique makes your work easier - both long-term and short-term. Now, I tend to avoid tables since they're a pain to maintain, but I also realize pure CSS designs can be equally painful given all the cross-browser pitfalls.

When I advocate CSS, it's never from a dogmatic position - instead, it's simply because CSS makes things so much easier, especially when it comes to updating your site. If using CSS doesn't simplify your work, then you need to simplify how you're using CSS, even if that means (shudder) using tables for your layout.

Class-Tables-0.23

Class-Tables-0.23 12/20/2003 12:17 AM

Class-Tables-0.24

Class-Tables-0.24 01/11/2004 01:31 AM

Zebra Tables

Zebra Tables 03/06/2004 01:52 AM
While misused tables are becoming increasingly rare, the table retains a legitimate role in data formatting. A little CSS and JavaScript magic can make tables better at what they do best: displaying tabular data.

"poker tables "

"poker tables " 09/27/2004 11:18 AM

Class-Tables-0.26

Class-Tables-0.26 01/22/2004 04:54 AM

not be able to meet time tables

not be able to meet time tables 11/11/2003 05:55 AM
may delay the writing .. reports .. Bushco

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20192-2003Nov9.html
track this site | 5 links

Teachers want school tables to go

Teachers want school tables to go 04/12/2004 07:34 PM
Teachers are calling for the abolition of school league tables in England, in line with the rest of the UK.

Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death

Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death 05/27/2004 03:01 AM
WebmasterBase May 27 2004 7:53AM GMT

Class-Tables-0.28_1

Class-Tables-0.28_1 07/06/2004 05:14 PM

Constructing Your Tables: Help from
DevArticles

Constructing Your Tables: Help from
DevArticles 11/14/2002 09:24 AM

Building accessible tables.

Building accessible tables. 09/30/2002 01:52 PM
CSS and XHTML have given tables a pretty rough ride in recent times. Of course, this is the fault of just about all web developers who have at some point in their career used them for laying out page elements. This article is not about using tables for layout. It is about how to use tables to display information in an accessible manner. Use XHTML and CSS all you want for layout, but if you have information relationships to display, use tables and use them well.

MPs call for better school tables

MPs call for better school tables 05/12/2004 08:14 PM
MPs have called for new, improved school performance tables which take account of external factors.

Text, Tables, and Graphics

Text, Tables, and Graphics 12/03/2002 12:47 PM

CodeWalkers: Crossing Over (DB Tables,
That Is)

CodeWalkers: Crossing Over (DB Tables,
That Is) 01/22/2003 08:29 AM

Class-Tables-0.29_1

Class-Tables-0.29_1 07/24/2004 06:24 AM

Turning The Digital Tables

Turning The Digital Tables 12/22/2004 01:13 AM

Instead of turntables and endless sleeves of vinyl, the music playing out of the speakers is sourced from an iPod. By Julie Clothier, CNN

Throwing Tables out the Window

Throwing Tables out the Window 08/03/2004 06:01 PM

Last week Stopdesign's Douglas Bowman posted this great article about redesigning Microsoft's site using tableless layout.

"Throwing Tables Out the Window"

"Throwing Tables Out the Window" 07/28/2004 04:35 AM

Spreadsheets as Oracle tables

Spreadsheets as Oracle tables 07/22/2002 10:48 PM
CNET Jul 22 2002 10:20PM ET

Class-Tables-0.25_1

Class-Tables-0.25_1 01/11/2004 11:40 PM

Brussels tables data retention law

Brussels tables data retention law 04/29/2004 09:05 AM
All your data are belong to us

UK slipping in global e-government
tables

UK slipping in global e-government
tables 05/05/2004 09:17 PM
Computer Weekly May 6 2004 1:23AM GMT

Embedding Perl in database tables

Embedding Perl in database tables 03/17/2005 03:15 AM
Put Perl into your RDBMS design to reach database nirvana. This installment looks specifically the Class::DBI CPAN module and MySQL to introduce you to embedding Perl in database tables.

HTML Utopia -- Designing Without Tables

HTML Utopia -- Designing Without Tables 06/27/2002 02:08 AM
A few weeks ago I stumbled upon a site that really inspired me. It was beautifully designed and presented. It was not until I looked at the code behind it that my heart truly skipped a beat. The site was A List Apart, the brain child of Jeffrey Zeldman. Zeldman is also involved in WaSP - The WEB STANDARDS PROJECT that launched the browser upgrade campaign. The campaign encourages Users to upgrade to browsers that meet WC3 recommendations and lobbies the browser developers to build browsers that comply more thoroughly. I decided to have a crack at rebuilding a SitePoint page without using any tables (currently there are 18 tables being used, 17 of which are unnecessary). -- Julian Carroll

"zeldman.gel"

Keyboards are old - tap tables
to send email

Keyboards are old - tap tables
to send email 09/07/2004 10:54 AM
Sensor system allows input from virtually anything

Break Your Record for 100 Math Tables
1.3

Break Your Record for 100 Math Tables
1.3 04/12/2004 04:51 PM
A simple product to do math tables. It’s not only for kids. Do it with your family!

Rainbow tables for LM/NTLMv1
authentication

Rainbow tables for LM/NTLMv1
authentication 09/14/2004 02:37 PM
Hidenobu Seki (Sep 14 2004)

PostgreSQL & PHP, Open Source, and
Tables

PostgreSQL & PHP, Open Source, and
Tables 06/26/2002 01:01 PM

Grok Description matches for The Trouble with Tables
GrokA matches for The Trouble with Tables

The Trouble with Tables

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